Scriptures used to support Trinity Doctrine and Response to same

Unity or Trinity
�The dogma of the Trinity
�The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion � the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

�Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.�

�There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever.�

� Catholic Encyclopedia

After claiming, above, that there are three persons that make up one God, the Catholic Church then adds: �the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.� Let us see what Jesus had to say about this "trinity" within the trinity, i.e., (1) co-eternal. (2) co-equal, (3) omnipotent.

(1) co-eternal: – According to "eternal" means
: having no beginning and no end in time : lasting forever
: existing at all times : always true or valid
: seeming to last forever
The same authority gives definition to the word "die" as
to pass out of existence : cease their anger died at these words
(2) co-equal:
"equal with each other;"
"equal with one another coequal branches of government"
(3) omnipotent:
"having complete or unlimited power"
(1) co-eternal. The teaching is then that both God (the Father) and Jesus (His Son) fit the definition of "eternal:" – "existing at all times."

With these thoughts in mind let us compare the teachings of men (and particularly these claims of the Catholic Church) with that of the Word of God, and leave the vindication of His Truth to Him – Rom. 3:4 "Let God be true, but every man a liar."

According to the Bible Jesus was NOT "co-eternal" ("existing at all times") with God. If that were the case then Jesus could not have DIED for our sins!
(Yes, we are familiar with the teaching by some that Jesus did not actually die, but only appeared to die).
According to the Word of God (a far superior authority than that of any man or group of men) Jesus did die. In fact, there could be no hope for any human if he did not die! - Acts 3:15; 4:10; 13:30, 33-37; 17:30-31; Rom. 4:24; 6:4,9-10; 7:4; 8:11; 10:9 [notice that in order to be saved you must believe that God raised Jesus from the dead]; 1 Cor. 15:3-4, 13-17, 19-20; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:20; Col. 2:12; 1 Thess. 1:10; 2 Tim. 2:8; 1 Pet. 1:21.
Note the extremely obvious contradiction this has with the Bible.

Scriptures and reasoning used to support the claim that Jesus and God are one and the same entity Scriptures and reasoning used to dispute that claim
"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." John 5:18 This shows Jesus considered himself to be equal with God. It was NOT JESUS who said this, but the Jews. They often misunderstood our Lord.

It was the Jews who later (being persuaded by �the chief priests and elders�) said �Let him be crucified� and �His blood be on us, and on our children.�) Matt. 27:23,25

This is hardly a ringing endorsement!
�And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. .. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me.� John 17:11,22-23 These are the words of Jesus which he spoke to the Father in prayer: (vs 11) �that they may be one, as we are� and (vs 22-23) �we are one: .. thou in me.� This entire 17th chapter of John demonstrates that God is superior to Jesus and that not only is Jesus NOT God but the type of oneness Jesus had with the Father is exactly the type of oneness he was asking the Father to give to his followers.

Note vss. 20, 21: �Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; [21] that they all may be one; as [in the same way] thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.�

In verses 20 and 21 Jesus includes not only his disciples at that time, but additionally all who were to become his disciples �through their word.�

Jesus is praying that his disciples, �those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we are� - vs. 11. The same thought is expressed in vss 22, 23: �that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me.�

If Jesus saying to the Father that �we are one� is supposed to prove the trinity, what then does the inclusion of his disciples indicate? Would that not change it from a trinity to a multiplicity?

The much simpler and scriptural answer is that Jesus was referring to the fact that he and the Father were one in purpose, heart, mind. This is a phrase which is still in common use today. When someone says �We are of one mind,� everyone understands they are not claiming to be the same person, but rather they are in agreement on whatever is being referred to.
�Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? [10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. [11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.� John 14:9-11 Jesus responds to Philip's request to see the Father by telling him �He that hath seen me hath seen the Father� and �I am in the Father, and the Father in me.�

This is supposed to prove that Jesus and God are one and the same.
This scripture (John 14:9-11) also says �the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.� Jesus is here saying what he says elsewhere, i.e., �of mine own self I can do nothing.� All ability, authority Jesus had was not of himself. It was given to him by the Father. He is reaffirming that �My Father is greater than I� (verse 28) � Not co-equal.

In the next verse (vs 12) Jesus says �Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.�
Here Jesus states that those who believe on him will do greater works than Jesus did! Again, if Jesus is God, how could his followers ever do greater works than he did?

If Jesus is God, why then did he say �I go unto my Father?� � This truly makes no sense.
�Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.� Matt. 1:23 Because Jesus was prophetically called Emmanuel, meaning �God with us,� it proves that indeed God was with the Jews in the person of Jesus. Going from one language (in this case Greek) into another (in this case English) is not as precise as most of us would like. Sentence structure and forms of words are often different.

The last phrase should be translated �God is with us.� The word �is� being implied. � See this verse in RVIC.
�But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.� John 10:38 Same argument as before. John 10:29-39 �My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all [including Jesus]; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and my Father are one. [31] Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. [32] Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? [33] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Just as before the Jews misunderstood him. The Jews are claiming that Jesus is making himself out to be God. That this is true is verified by the scripture he quotes in his reply.] [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [Psa. 82:6] [35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; [36] Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? [Again Jesus claims to be �the son of God,� not God himself.] [37] If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. [38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
[39] Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,�
�When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. [6] But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, [7] Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?Matt. 2:5-7 Jesus forgave the sins of the man who was sick of the palsy. Only God can forgive sins. Therefore Jesus is God. Once again, it was NOT JESUS who said this, but the Jews. They often misunderstood our Lord. Jesus was authorized by God to do this.

According to Roman Catholic teaching the Pope has this same authority. If that were true would that make him part of the Trinity?
�And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.� Gen. 1:26 1 Corinthians 8:6, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

In simple language: All things are of the Father [He is the author] and by the Son [Jesus is the one who executes the Father's plan].

When God said �Let us make man..� he was speaking to his Son, the Logos (the Word,) the one we now refer to as Jesus (before he became a man.)
�In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. .. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. .. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. .. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.� John 1:1,3,10,14 This tells us that the Word was �the only begotten of the Father� and came to earth. This was Jesus. It also says that �the Word was God,� thus proving that Jesus is God. The Greek word used for �God� is defined by Strong's concordance:
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

Recognizing that when the Greek 'theos' (Strong's G2316) is preceded by the Greek article 'ho' (Strong's G3588) it adds the emphasis indicated by Professor Strong above. What is apparent then is that we recognize that when 'theos' is used both with and without the Greek article 'ho' in the same context, it is clearly distinguishing between 'theos' (God) and 'ho theos' (the supreme God.)
Taking the Greek text (from Wescott and Hort), and using Strong's definition of "theos" (Strong's G2316) as "a deity" except when preceded by "ho" (Strong's G3588) when it should be rendered "the supreme Divinity" we get the following result:
John 1:1 εν G1722 In αρχη G746 a beginning [commencement] ην G1510 existed [was] ο G3588 the λογος G3056 Word [Logos] και G2532 and ο G3588 the λογος G3056 Word [Logos] ην G1510 existed [was] προς G4314 with τον G3588 the θεον G2316 supreme Divinity και G2532 and θεος G2316 a deity ην G1510 existed [was] ο G3588 the λογος G3056 Word [Logos]   

John 1:2 ουτος G3778 The same ην G1510 existed [was] εν G1722 in αρχη G746 a beginning [commencement] προς G4314 with τον G3588 the θεον G2316 supreme Divinity

Using the above reasoning, John 1:1-2 should properly read:

"In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the supreme Divinity, and the Word was a deity. The same was in a beginning with the supreme Divinity."

Once we see the Greek it becomes clear that the only begotten Son of God existed as a separate being before the creation of the world. He was himself also a god, but not the God. The Father used his only begotten Son, the Word (Logos), to create all other things.

Trinity is a Mystery
According to official Catholic teaching the Trinity is a mystery.

�The trinity as a mystery

�The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Constitution, "De fide. cath.", iv). In other words, our understanding of it remains only partial, even after we have accepted it as part of the Divine message.

� The Catholic Encyclopedia

By way of contrast, Jesus said to his disciples: �It is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.� Matt. 13:11
Only One God
Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
Isaiah 44:6, "...beside me there is no God."
Isaiah 45:5, "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:"
Isaiah 46:9, "...I am God, and there is none else;"
Death and Resurrection of Jesus disproves the Trinity
Psa. 90:2 �Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.�

This text indicates that God had no beginning and has no end. Yet Jesus (the one who Trinitarians claim is God) did have an end. He died on the Cross! It took the power of the one true God to raise him from the dead. � 1 Cor. 15:3-4 �Christ died .. and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day..�

How did Christ rise again from the dead, having been buried, put into the grave? � especially since the scriptures tell us that �The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,� � Ecc. 9:5; �Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.� - Psa 146:3,4 and �there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.� � Ecc. 9:10. � The Hebrew word for �grave� in this last verse is �sheol.� The Apostle Peter on the day of Pentecost quoted Psa. 16:10 �Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades – the Greek equivalent to sheol, the grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption� and he applied it to Jesus Christ. Acts 2:27 �Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Greek: hades, the grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.� Again he makes the same reference in verse 31 �He spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (Greek: hades, the grave), neither his flesh did see corruption.�

The point here being that there is no knowledge, work, wisdom, etc. in the grave, in the place where Jesus was between the time of his death on the Cross until he was raised from the dead by God. � And yet the scriptures plainly state that God is �from everlasting to everlasting.� God is immortal, it is impossible for Him to die! But it was not impossible for His son Jesus Christ to die.

True, there are those who claim that Jesus only �appeared to die,� but they have no scriptural support for such a thought. On the contrary, the scriptures say prophetically of Jesus that �there was no deceit in his mouth.� He told his disciples that he would die, and he did. If he only �appeared to die� then either the scriptures are not true, or Jesus deceived all who witnessed his death. In fact, if Jesus only �appeared to die� then the Scriptures themselves are not reliable. � �God is true, even if everyone else is a liar.� Rom. 3:4 (ISV)

What do the Scriptures Teach Concerning the Relationship
between God (The Father) and His Son Jesus Christ?
1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

1 Corinthians 8:6, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
In this verse the word �God� is Strong's G2316 while the word �Lord� is Strong's G2962.
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.

The significance of the Apostle Paul's usage of theos (God) and kurios (Lord) is to show that he clearly understood the difference between the two and that there is only one God � the Father, and there is only one who is called Christ, i.e., our Lord Jesus who is different from God.

John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and [also] Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
This clearly shows God as being the one who sent Jesus, God being superior � not equal.

John 14:28 �My Father is greater than I.�
This is self-explanatory.

1 Cor. 15:27-28 �For he [God] hath put all things under his [Jesus'] feet. But when he [God] saith all things are put under him [Jesus], it is manifest that he [God] is excepted, which did put all things under him [Jesus]. And when all things shall be subdued unto him [Jesus], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [God] that put all things under him [Jesus], that God may be all in all.�
This clearly shows not only that Jesus and God are not one and the same but additionally that God is superior to Jesus.

Rev. 1:1 �The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him..�
Jesus was very consistent, he always gave God (his Father) the credit, the glory.

The Relationship between God and His Only Begotten
Son demonstrated in Hebrews Chapter 1
Verses 1-5 �God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he [God] hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he [the Logos] made the worlds; [3] Who [after his resurrection] being the brightness of his [God's] glory, and the express image of his [God's] person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he [Jesus] had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; [4] Being made [he was not there before] so much better than the angels, as he [Jesus] hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. [5] For unto which of the angels said he [God] at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?�
  • It was God who appointed Jesus to be heir of all things, not Jesus appointing himself.
  • Jesus was �made� better than angels. If he was �made� then he had a beginning, yet God did not have a beginning.
    - By the way, Jesus is described as �the beginning of the creation of God.� Rev. 3:14
  • Jesus had to obtain a more excellent name than the angels.

  • Heb. 1:9 �Thou [Jesus] hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.�
  • God anointed Jesus, not God anointed God nor Jesus anointed Jesus.

  • Heb. 1:13 But to which of the angels said he [God] at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
  • God makes the enemies of Jesus to become Jesus' footstool.

  • The simple picture the Scriptures present to us of Jesus Christ is that:
    � He was born a babe (Luke 2:7).
    � He "increased in wisdom" (Luke 2:52).
    Contrast with "Great is our Lord.. his understanding is infinite." Psa 147:5
    If God and Jesus are one and the same, and God's understanding is infinite, why then did Jesus �increase� in wisdom?
    � He "learned obedience by the things that he suffered" (Hebrews 5:8).
    � Really? If Trinitarian view is true then God had to "learn obedience." � God knows all. Why would He have to "learn" anything? Who would He have to be obedient to?
    � He was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15).
    How could Jesus be God and be "tempted?" � "God cannot be tempted with evil." (James 1:13).
    � He "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared." (Hebrews 5:7).
    If Jesus is God, why the need for this prayer? He certainly could have delivered himself.

    "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32)
    � If Jesus is God, how could it be that God knows something that he (Jesus) does not? "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." (Acts 15:18)

    In Summary
    �Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.� Isa. 1:18

    In ALL of the Scriptures presented above, whether seeming to support the Trinity or not, if we simply try to apply them to the relationship between the Father (God) and his son (Jesus) as being a oneness of heart and purpose, it will quickly be seen that they all are harmonious.

    If, on the other hand, we attempt to apply ALL of the Scriptures presented above to the thought that God and Jesus are one and the same being, entity, we see the harmony of the Scriptures is lost.