Tuesday Evening, February 25, 1908.

( Chairman , M. C. KURFEES, Church of Christ, Louisville, Ky.)


The Scriptures clearly teach that the punishment of the (finally incorrigible) wicked will consist of conscious, painful, suffering, eternal in duration.

L. S. White, affirmative.

C. T. Russell, negative.


Mr. Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am glad to be in the affirmative on this great question that has been just read in your hearing, that "The Scriptures clearly teach that the punishment of the (finally incorrigible) wicked will consist of conscious, painful suffering, eternal in duration." And in order that the point at issue may be clearly defined so that there can be no mistake as to what the issue is on this question, I shall proceed for a moment in a definition of terms.

Punishment'Penalty inflicted for the committing of crime or offense.

Incorrigible Wicked'Those who can not be corrected or amended.

Conscious'That which the subject realizes.

Punishment begins and is carried on with the consciousness of pain inflicted because of guilt contracted through the violation of law or the neglect of duty.

Painful Suffering'Feeling or undergoing pain.

Eternal in Duration'Without end, for ever and ever.

I wish at this time to call your attention unto two words that will be investigated extensively at this time, they being "sheol" in the Old Testament and "hades" in the New Testament, so that there can be no mistake as to the teaching of God's word on this question, or my speech either as for that matter. The word "sheol" is used 65 times'31 times translated "grave," 31 times translated "hell" and 3 times translated "pit." Gesenius on "sheol" says: "The underworld, a vast subterranean place." Job 11:8; Deut. 32:22: "Full of thick darkness, where dwell the shades of the dead; the dying are said to go down into Sheol." The word "sheol" itself simply denotes the world of departed spirits and does not of itself teach anything about the punishment of the wicked. The same is true of the word "hades," the equivalent of "sheol," which is ten times translated "hell" in the Authorized Version, but simply transferred in the Revised Version. Therefore, any Scripture that my distinguished opponent might introduce from the Old Testament with the word "hell" in it you may be assured of the fact now that it has no reference whatever unto eternal punishment of the wicked, and the Scriptures he may introduce on "hades" do not have reference unto the punishment of the wicked beyond this life.

But there is another word in the New Testament from which the word "hell" is translated uniformly that carries with it the idea of eternal punishment for the incorrigible wicked, and that is the word "gehenna." It is used twelve times in the New Testament, and every time without an exception refers unto the place of the punishment of the wicked beyond this life, and as this is to be the very center around which the other thoughts of this discussion revolve; I invite your attention to the twelve passages of Scripture in which the word "gehenna" is used, uniformly translated "hell" in the Authorized Version.

Matt. 5:22: "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Matt. 5:29-30: "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members shall perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee, for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Matt. 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matt. 18:9: "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee; it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." [HG210] Matt. 23:15: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Mark 23:33: "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers! How can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

Mark 9:43-48: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched; where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Luke 12:5: "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear; fear him which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."

Jas. 3:6: "And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity; so is the tongue .among our members, that it defileth the whole body and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell."

I trust now the gentleman will meet me on these twelve passages of Scripture, so that we can have some debating at this time. Using this as a foundation, I will introduce a number of strong, Scriptural and clearly logical arguments in support of these Scriptures that refer unto the future punishment of the incorrigible wicked.

But will the wicked be punished after death? Heb. 10:28-29: "He that despiseth Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" The punishment inflicted upon the sinner at the ultimate judgment will not be a mere extinction of life or physical identity, but an everlasting punishment, set forth under the strong language "eternal fire" and is to be "sorer" than death without mercy. Will Elder Russell tell us what kind of a punishment is sorer than death without mercy? This can not be death, for it is worse than death.

In Luke 16:19-31, you have the case of the rich man and Lazarus. We showed you last night that they were both conscious in the other world. They recognized what was going on. The rich man died, and in Hades he "lifted up his eyes, being in torments." Mark the words "in torments."

"And seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom, and he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame." He was perfectly conscious that he was there. He was perfectly conscious that he was tormented, and begged for mercy. He knew that there would be no chance of salvation after death, as my opponent teaches. Hence he desired Abraham to send Lazarus back to this world to teach his brothers the word of God, that they might repent of their sins in this life and thus escape that awful place of torment, knowing they would have no opportunity of salvation after death. And Abraham told him there was no chance of escape, there was no chance of passing from one place into the other. Here is an actual example of consciousness in punishment after death. He promised you last night that he would investigate this question when he came to this proposition. We wait to see.

Dan. 12:2. I call your attention to two classes to be rewarded at the resurrection, one to have everlasting life, the other shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel says: "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt." If the wicked shall cease to exist and are not conscious after death, as my opponent teaches, how can they suffer everlasting shame? Or, in other words, how can an unconscious man be ashamed of anything? But the life of the one and the contempt of the other are equal in duration, each being everlasting; hence as long as the righteous live, the wicked will have contempt. If the word "everlasting" has no end when applied to the righteous, it certainly can have no end when applied to the wicked in the same sentence.

In support of this I read John 5:28-29: "Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation."

But you remember that I have asked my distinguished opponent various and divers questions on these propositions, and he has utterly ignored every one of them. I will take the charitable view of it, and say possibly he has not been able to note them and get them. I am going now to ask him a number of questions on this proposition, and that he may have no excuse he now has in his hand an accurate copy of every one of these questions, just as I am going to ask them, and if he does not answer them then you can know that he can not do it. [HG211] 1. Can man inflict everlasting punishment? (Matt. 10:28.)

2. Is the burning of the body everlasting punishment?

3. Did the people of Sodom suffer everlasting punishment when they were burned up with fire and brimstone? (Luke 17:29.)

4. Can a person suffer everlasting punishment more than one time?

5. What word would you use to show the future happiness of the righteous to be unending?

6. Does not our Lord use the same word to express the duration of the punishment of the wicked that he does the happiness of the righteous? (Matt. 25:46.)

7. Will this earth be burned up?

8. Will it exist after it is burned up?

9. Is the second death a physical death, or spiritual death?

10. If the wicked are burned up, literally, or just die a natural death in the future world, as you teach, do not the righteous suffer more in this life than the wicked in eternity?

11. If physical death will be everlasting punishment, as you teach, did not Jesus Christ suffer as great punishment as the greatest sinner, even a murderer, will ever have to suffer?

12. Many of the ancient Christians were burned at the stake. Did they suffer everlasting punishment?

13. When this earth is burned up (2 Pet. 3:10) which will suffer the most physical pain, man or the brutes?

14. If, as you teach (" Millennial Dawn," Vol. V., pages 362-363), that the human family and the brutes have the same spirit, and their bodies a common origin, if the death of man be everlasting punishment, will not the death of the brute also be everlasting punishment?

15. Can that which does not exist suffer punishment?

16. If, as you teach, the wicked cease to exist, do they not, therefore, cease to be punished?

17. Since their punishment ceases, if they cease to exist, can it be everlasting punishment?

18. Is it any greater punishment to be annihilated for eternity than for a few years?

I leave the questions now with my good brother and see whether he will even undertake to answer them or not, and insist that he shall answer them in his first reply this evening, that I may have a chance to attend to what he may say about them in my final speech in the affirmative at this time.

But I continue the affirmative argument.

Jude 4: "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation; ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Jude 12-13: "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear; clouds they are without water, carried about of winds, trees whose fruit withereth without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever."

Here are wicked men described as most worthless, miserable and mis-chief-making. They feast without fear; every point in their description denotes continued existence; namely, "clouds without water, wandering stars, wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame, to whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever." Could any one except my distinguished opponent imagine all these conditions to belong to that which does not exist? This statement of Jude agrees with that of Christ. Matt. 25:30: "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Jude says they are wandering stars. Jesus and Jude both say they are in darkness, and Jesus says, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Can this be said of that which does not exist? No, but their weeping and gnashing of teeth is because of their conscious suffering. The poet has well said: "Oh, dreadful thought of deep despair, To hear my Saviour say, Depart, ye cursed wandering stars, Into darkness far away."

In Mark 9:43-44, Jesus said: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched."

Verses 45-48, Jesus says: "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter halt into life than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched."

If the worm does not die, and my opponent says the wicked die, then I ask him what is the worm spoken of here by Jesus Christ, and as the worm will not die, what will become of the worm that does not die after ! the wicked die?

Now I introduce an argument to show that the [HG212] punishment is everlasting. 2 Thess. 1:7-10: "And to you who are troubled, rest with us; when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power."

Rev. 14:9-11: "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb, and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Notice, the smoke of their torments ascendeth up forever and forever. Here is a copy of Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, in which we told you last night the scholarship of the world is combined, and Mr. Thayer gives as the definition of torment from the Greek word basanizo, that means "to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind) to torment." Can anything be plainer? Rev. 20:10: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

But those who worship Satan shall also be tormented forever and forever. (Rev. 14:11.) Then this syllogism:

1. Their conscious suffering will last as long as their torment.

2. Their torment will continue for ever and ever. (Rev. 14:11)

3. Therefore, they will be in conscious suffering for ever and ever.

Now I want to introduce an argument to show you that the punishment of the wicked will continue as long as the joy of the righteous. Matt. 25:46: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal." Our Saviour used the Greek word aionios to show both the duration of the life of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked. Dr. Thayer gives us a definition of aionios, "without end, never to cease, everlasting." Christ used the word aionios twenty-six times, twenty-two times to show the blessed, holy and eternal life held out as a reward to his faithful disciples; and four times to show the duration of the condemnation and punishment of the wicked. In every one of these instances our Saviour used aionios in the strict sense of absolute endless duration.

I will now give you some examples of aionios applied to the future life of the righteous. John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have [aionios] everlasting life." John 12:25: "He that loveth his life shall lose it, and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life [aionios] eternal."

Now I give you some examples where our Saviour applies aionios unto the future life of the wicked, and if it will give endless joy unto the righteous, why will it not express endless punishment or the duration of endless punishment of the wicked?

Matt. 18:8: "Wherefore, if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off and cast them from thee. It is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into [aionios] everlasting fire." Mark 3:29: "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of [aionios] eternal damnation." Matt. 25:41: "Then shall he also say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into [aionios] everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Verse 46: "And these shall go away into [aionios] everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life [aionios] eternal."

I want to give you the meaning of aionios from a number of standard Greek lexicons.

Dr. Thayer says aionios means, "without end, never to cease, everlasting."

Liddell & Scott, Greek-English Lexicon: "Everlasting, eternal."

Pickering's Greek-English Lexicon: "Of long duration; lasting; everlasting; perpetual; eternal."

Donnegan's Greek and English Lexicon: "Everlasting," "eternal."

Yonge's English-Greek Lexicon: "Everlasting; perpetual."

Schleusner: "Everything that is without end, especially that which is to come after the course of this life and this world; perpetual and interminable."

Baxter's Analytical Greek Lexicon: "Indeterminate as to duration; eternal; everlasting."

Robinson's Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament: "Ever-enduring; perpetual; everlasting; implying eternity, both before and after the future; without end."

Cremer, German: "Aionios'To eternity; time in its duration, continual, enduring, eternal."

Greenfield's Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament: "Aionios'Unlimited as to duration; eternal; everlasting."

Tyndale's Version of the New Testament, the first [HG213] edition of the New Testament ever printed in English, published by Tyndale in Antwerp, in the year 1526, gives aionios the same definition when he says in Matt. 25:46, "And these shall go into everlasting payne, and the righteous into life eternal."

The great commentator Meyer, in his Commentary on the New Testament, Vol. 2, page 183, says: "The absolute idea of eternity in regard to the punishment of hell is not to be got rid of either by a popular toning down of the force of aionios, or by appealing to the figurative character of the term 'fire. '"I might give you definitions from Matthew Henry, Clarke, Theile, Edwards, Tholuck, Martenson' [Here time was called by the Moderator, and the speaker did not conclude his sentence.]


I take this opportunity to reply to Elder White's criticism of the debate reports in Monday's Enquirer. On Monday morning I obtained a paper and merely saw that we had more than the six columns space proposed by the publishers. My attention was called away, so that I did not get to read one word of the debate until after hearing with surprise Elder White's charge of partiality. On inquiry, I find that all of Elder White's arguments were printed, but to keep within the space limits some of the Scripture quotations were omitted where they were no part of the argument, and where the argument did not run through them. But the citations were all carefully given. Those of you who have read the reports have doubtless noticed that there were more trifling blunders connected with my side of the question, which clearly shows it had no greater care at the hands of the reporters than had Elder White's.

Respecting the stenographers said to be "Russell's men," Dr. L. W. Jones, of Chicago, wrote me that himself and his friend, G. M. Huntsinger, a Kansas court stenographer, proposed making a verbatim report of the debates. He had heard that a newspaper proposed a lengthy report, provided rapid stenographers could be had. He offered co-operation, which we gladly accepted, well knowing that few stenographers can report a rapid delivery. My own occasionally runs 230 words per minute. In my publishing-house we have ten stenographers, but only one of them could serve in such an emergency – Mr. Williamson, and he consented to assist also. So far as I know, none of these gentlemen expect to have pay for the service, and only Mr. Williamson even has his expenses provided. I supplied them with Columbia graphophone instruments and two lady typists.

They labor until 3 A. M. to get the matter to the printers in season for the early edition.

Elder White objected that these were my friends. I assured him that all Christians should be my friends, and that to be a Christian surely should not render a man less acceptable than a worldling as a reporter. I urged that he find one or more men for the job, but he declined, making the excuse that he feared something would be cut out to keep within the six-column space proposed. I urged that he or one of his brother ministers stay at night and see that no vital point was cut out.

But I assured him that I was perfectly satisfied to leave the trimming down to the judgment of the editor. This he also declined.

Another matter: Some are inquiring whether or not I will preserve my kindly treatment of my opponent regardless of how he shall treat me. I answer "yes."

Personalities and vituperations and slurs are no part of logic, and the class of people who would be influenced thereby are not such as I expect to influence, anyway. We should bear in mind, too, that courtesy and Christian conduct in Texas may not be exactly the same thing as in Ohio, and vice versa.

I take this opportunity of calling to the attention of this audience the correspondence between Elder White and myself on this subject, as published on the second leaf of the debate programs which you have in your possession. Notice particularly the last paragraph of my letter of acceptance. I will read it: " As respects rules for the controversy: I suggest that each speaker be allowed full liberty to order his subject according to his best judgment, and that it shall be in order for him to present his argument as may please him best. The language and conduct of each of the disputants shall represent to his opponent and the auditors in general his conception of the divine rules and standards governing Christian courtesy."

Now for our evening topic: "The Scriptures clearly teach that the punishment of the wicked (finally incorrigible) will consist of conscious painful suffering eternal in duration."

This I most positively deny, and shall endeavor to prove, and yet I once so believed. I once specially admired Spurgeon's sermons on hell. They are so vivid, so realistic. I thought him practically the only honest preacher, for the others, professing to believe the same, rarely refer to the matter, or treat it indifferently, whereas, if true, it certainly should be the theme of every pulpit, and how to escape an eternity of such awful suffering should be the theme of every conversation'to the extinguishment of every pleasure and the interrupting, at least, of every business. As a youth I went about my home city and printed here and [HG214] there with chalk words that I trusted would arrest the attention of some fellow-creature and assist in saving from the awful torture I believed was set before him.

Similarly on Sundays I sought to harangue such as would hear, telling them of the hell of torment to which they were surely going unless they repented and became saints of God. Had the Salvation Army been in existence then, I presume I should have joined it. Let me here remark that while I have practically nothing in common with the Salvation Army as respects their teachings, I have great respect for their honesty and zeal. They at least seem to believe what they teach, and that is more than can be said of the majority of Christian ministers and laymen whose time is devoted largely to business, to pleasure and to social functions, while they profess to believe that their neighbors, their friends, yea, the members of their own families who are out of Christ, un-sanctified, not Spirit-begotten, are sure to land in eternal torment unless converted, changed, Spirit-begotten. I have great sympathy with so-called mission workers who, thoroughly under the spell of this doctrine of devils, which so blasphemes the character of our heavenly Father, can not take time for business or pleasure or even to study the word of God, but in their own language must be "saving souls." I do not wonder that this terrible doctrine has sent many to the madhouse. I do not wonder that others seek to drown the thought of it in pleasure, in business or in the intoxicating cup.

My opponent has charged against me that my endeavor to clear the Almighty's character, and to show that the Bible does not teach this awful doctrine, is having a bad influence. I dispute that. Let me relate briefly an incident proving the contrary. A short time ago, when holding a meeting at Chattanooga, Tenn., a gentleman approached me, gave me his name, and reminded me that he had been in correspondence with me for some time. I said: "I know you very well by correspondence." "Ah, no," he replied, "I never really told you who I was, but I will tell you now. As you know, I live in Mississipp1 I keep a store there. When your literature reached me I was one of the wickedest of men in the world. I need not go into details, but briefly would say that I did everything that was bad. My wife, a good Methodist, did all she could to help me. She said: 'John, you will go to hell. 'I said: 'I know it, Mary, and I am determined, Mary, to deserve everything I get. I know I am a bad man, and I know I will be eternally tormented, but now, Mary, I will deserve it. I will progress in my wickedness. 'I was in that attitude of mind when, through the mails, one of your tracts reached me entitled 'The Wages of Sin is Death, and Not Eternal torment. 'I read it a second time. I said: 'That is different, I must read this. 'It was the most reasonable thing I had ever read along religious lines. I immediately wrote to you for more, and have since obtained probably all the Bible helps that the Tract Society furnishes. I want to tell you, Brother Russell, that I am a new man; that the love of God has produced an influence upon my heart and life which the fear of him never exercised. And another thing, you will remember perhaps that I sent you several $50 checks for help in circulating those tracts, and that I have not sent any recently. I want to explain to you why." I answered: "It is not necessary, brother, to explain. You know we never ask for money, and you owe me no explanation respecting the matter." tie replied: "Yes, but I want you to know why these checks have not been going. They were conscience money, Brother Russell. I had given up my own sinful practices, but I was still selling liquor to the Mississippi negroes, and I was trying to ease my conscience, but I can not stand it, the truth was too powerful for me. I want to tell you that now I sell no liquor in my store, that I am endeavoring to live a godly life and to hold up the light of God's truth in my neighborhood."

Let me remind you again, clear friends, that in your city, as in every large city, our ears are assailed with oaths or cursing, men and boys damning each other to hell. These are not ignorant savages, but persons who all their lives have been under the influence of this awful doctrine, and it has not converted them. Let me remind you, further, that the jails and penitentiaries of Christendom are full to overflowing with criminals, and that their religious and other antecedents are inquired into at the time of their incarceration, and that these testify that the criminals are such as had this hellfire torment theory poured into their ears from childhood. I do not say that correct views of almighty God would have restrained all these criminals, but I do believe that it would have restrained many of them.

We have evidence of that fact in your Columbus (Ohio) Penitentiary, where a short time ago three men under life sentence as murderers came into contact with our publications, setting forth the real character of God and his plan of salvation, and as a result the course of their lives was changed; they became true Christians and were so recognized by the people of the prison. Two of these have since been pardoned because of good behavior and one of them is a minister of the gospel today.

I receive many letters from infidels telling me of their change of heart and their acceptance of the Scriptures since they have come to see them in. their true light'to know their Creator as a God of justice, wisdom, love and power.

It would not at all surprise me if there are some in this audience who are believers in the Bible as the [HG215] inspired word of God only because of the better explanation thereof they have received directly or indirectly through the harmonization of the Scriptures presented in my teachings, printed and oral. Let us test the matter. If there are any in this audience who are fully consecrated to God, but who to-night would have been infidels without the assistance of the teachings which I promulgate, let them show it, please, by rising to their feet. A pretty good showing'about one hundred! Who would have been infidels'would be to-night infidels.

By way of testing the matter further, let us now put another question: Are there any in this audience to-night fully and truly consecrated to God who were infidels, or who were converted to God by the doctrine of eternal torment, please rise to their feet. I only see one'two! Eternal torment is claimed to have converted two, and the gospel of the love of God, the justice of God, has brought over one hundred into harmony.

We hold that it is a mistake to claim that the blasphemy of God's name and character is essential to the propagation of Christianity. We claim that nothing else in the world is making so many unbelievers as this false doctrine; that nothing else in the world is turning the hearts of so many men so thoroughly away from God and all desire to draw near to him in fellowship and true worship; that its influence is evil, and only evil, and that those who are noble and true Christians under such a faith are such in spite of it, and not by reason of its assistance.

We will admit that some of the Lord's parables and dark sayings are capable of a twist, or, as the apostle would say, capable of being wrested by those whose minds have been prejudiced on this subject from infancy. Coming to these dark sayings with their minds fully convinced, they do not seek for another interpretation of them, but accept the most ludicrous interpretations without a qualm of reasoning. For hundreds of years during and since the Dark Ages these doctrines have become fixed in their twist, so that any endeavor to investigate or to straighten out the strands of truth and to test them meets with strongest opposition, their minds being prejudiced, though in many instances unwittingly so. This is one respect in which my opponent has the advantage of me. He reels off one after another of texts which have been misinterpreted for centuries, and whose misrepresentations are fixed in the minds of the majority of Christian people. The hearing of these texts brings to their minds at once the fallacious theory so long attached to them. If you will take a yard of rope, my dear friends, and attempt to untwist it and separate its strands and pull them straight again, you will have an illustration of the difficulty you must expect to encounter in your endeavor to get clearly before your minds the straight truth of the Divine Word, which has been wrested and twisted since the Dark Ages. A little of this twist was, indeed, gotten rid of in Reformation times, but the adversary has seen to it that other kinks and quirks have been added.

As, for instance, on the subject of this evening: Protestants have their teachings from Roman Catholicism. They accepted the Catholic view as respects a hell of eternal torture, manned with fireproof devils; but they reject the only palliative feature'purgatory. To that extent they have made matters worse. But the Catholics and Protestants agree that only saints, the little flock, the elect, are fit for heaven when they die. They remember our Master's words: "If any man be my disciple, let him take up his cross and follow me" (Mark 8:34). The Protestants, therefore, at one sweep, turn the vast majority of our race, the unsaintly, into eternal torment, never-ending, and, we might add, useless, for neither could they be profited by it, nor could God be glorified thereby. There is something much more reasonable in the Catholic view, which consigns only willful heretics to eternal torment, but which places in purgatory the vast majority of our race, there to be purged of sin during the hundreds or thousands of years of tribulation, that they may be ultimately purified and received to heaven. They have no sympathy with the Catholic view in the sense of approving it as Scriptural, when, to the contrary, it is unscriptural. The Scriptures declare that "the dead know not anything;" that "their sons come to honor and they know it not; to dishonor and they perceive it not of them," and that there is neither wisdom, nor knowledge, nor device in the grave (Sheol) "whither all go" (Ecc. 9:10).

That which in the Scriptures most nearly corresponds to the purgatory of the Catholics is the millennial kingdom, in which the whole world in general will have not only an opportunity to come into harmony with God, but receive chastisements and stripes in proportion as they neglect to hearken to the great Teacher whose word will then be law. Yet how different is purgatory manned by devils and inflicting all kinds of tortures, mental and physical, from the purgatory God has arranged in the glorious epoch of purgation, when all families of earth will be brought to a knowledge of the truth; when all the blind eyes shall be opened; when all the deaf ears shall be unstopped; when Satan will be bound that he shall deceive the nations no more; when every evil influence shall be restrained and every good and helpful influence will be lot loose among man; when the Lord who redeemed mankind will, in the promised times [HG216] (years), make restitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began, and when ultimately all who will receive these blessings into good and honest hearts and profit thereby may obtain eternal life, and all who reject these glorious opportunities will die the second death'be annihilated. Nevertheless, we repeat it, the Catholics, even though they have Satan's perversion and misrepresentations of the millennium for every man, have a much more reasonable and much more consistent error than that to which the Protestants bow down and worship'eternal, hopeless, infinite torments for infinite sin, or, in the majority of cases, for finite ignorance and blindness of the eyes of understanding.

Brother White, with all his love for debate and apparent anxiety to get after every objection, entirely overlooked, last night, it would appear, some of our most pointed Scriptural texts which we asked him specially to consider; for instance, the following:

Psa. 6:5: "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave" (sheol'the same word as hell) "who shall give thee thanks?"

Psa. 115:17: "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."

Psa. 146:4: "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

Ecc. 9:5: "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything."

Ecc. 9:10: "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor doubts, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Dan. 12:2: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Our dear brother just quoted those texts a few minutes ago, but he still did not say a word about how they will awake, and he did not say a word about how they are asleep. He did not give us anything at all about why they were to have all this countless suffering until the resurrection. He tells us in one breath they are dead, and in the next breath he tells us that they are suffering and in torture now. Father Adam passed out of existence five thousand years ago, but he would not be any more dead if he had died only' a few minutes ago, if he had only just been snatched away; but they are all getting it because they are all alive and can not die, and God himself could not kill them. Then also the dear brother quotes with apparent blindness the Scripture which says that God is able to destroy both soul and body. Yes, God is able to destroy, and he says he will. "All the wicked he will destroy," is the way it reads. What wicked will he destroy? Our dear brother forgot also this passage that I gave him from Job, "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, that shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." That is not an eight-hour sleep; that is the sleep of death he refers to. "Oh that thou wouldst hide me in the grave" (sheol, hell; sheol the same word as hell).

"Oh that thou wouldst hide me in sheol, the grave." But he didn't want to stay hidden in the grave'not forever'oh, no. "That thou wouldst appoint me a set time and remember me!" Oh, yes, dear friends, God has appointed a "set time" for remembering Job, and remembering all those others that have gone down into the great prison-house of death. The Lord's word is, "Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming"'does not come here yet'" in which all that are in the grave"'not all that are in hell, but all that are in their graves'" shall hear the voice of the Son of man and come forth." Job continues, "If a man die, he shall live again." No, they say he does not die; he is living all the time; he is more alive than he ever was'but Job does not know about that. job was entirely ignorant of that theory that a man is more alive after his death. Job wanted to know, "If a man dies, shall he live again?" And then what? He says, "All the clays of my appointed time will I wait till my change comes"'just as I am waiting, and you are waiting too; we are waiting in hope'hope of the resurrection of the dead, not the resurrection of the living. If they are alive, they do not need resurrection. It is the hope of resurrection of the dead that we are waiting for, dear friends; that is the good hope; that is the hope in the gospel that, at the second coming of our Master, the dead will be awakened. "Sorrow not as others who have no hope." If we believe that Jesus died'I do'and that Jesus rose again'I do'let us also believe that those who sleep in Jesus will God bring from the dead through him, by him. He will be the one through whom God will do it. They are in a state of death, they are not alive. They are not suffering torment. But mark you, dear friends, that those whom the apostle Paul tells us we can comfort ourselves about are not the saints; he did not say the saints that are fallen asleep. He is speaking about our friends and neighbors in general. They are all asleep in Jesus. How? Why, in the sense that they were all originally dead in Adam, and, under Adam's sentence, their death would have been everlasting destruction; but the Lord has very graciously provided a redemption, and therefore it is called a sleep, a very beautiful figure. It is a waiting for the morning, awaiting the time when. the golden Sun of righteousness shall rise, when Jesus as the great life-giver shall come to call them from the tomb, when all they that are in their graves shall hear his voice and come forth. We are not to sorrow for our [HG217] neighbors or for our friends. Why? Because they are saintly? No, but Christ Jesus died for sinners. The sinners are going to be brought out of the tomb'not merely the saints, but the sinners, will be brought from the tomb. The saints indeed are to have the first resurrection, a glorious resurrection, but provision is made for the world of mankind; all them that are in their graves shall hear his voice and come forth. No wonder we are waiting for him.

Instead of answering these plain, terse, Scriptural statements, our brother gave his time to misrepresenting our position by saying that we deny the resurrection of our Lord. Now, dear friends, our position is the very opposite. We lay all stress upon that. "If Christ be not risen, your faith is vain, ye are yet in your sins." There is no gospel if Christ is not risen. "He has become the firstfruits of them that sleep."

Time will not permit us to follow his various wanderings, to follow every detail of his argument and show its unreasonableness and unscripturalness, but we may in passing draw your attention to two points: First, that our brother did not disprove the Scriptural statement that "flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God." On the contrary, the texts which he read quite support it, for the apostle, in discussing the resurrection of the saints, says, "It is sown an animal body, it is raised a spiritual body." But our dear brother was asked to prove it was raised an animal body, and that it had this flesh body in Hades. The body of flesh is called the animal body, and that is what our Lord had during his earthly ministry. He did not have it before he was made flesh, nor does he have it now, for he is changed as the Scriptures say, and has now a Scriptural body, heavenly, glorious.

We notice another trifling flaw in our brother's argument. When he switched off to describe the rich man and Lazarus, he had the rich man buried, and then, without waiting for a resurrection, he had him in torture with eyes and tongue and brain. These he would have you probably understand were spiritual eyes and a spiritual tongue and a spiritual brain, though he tells you not how he could get these without a resurrection. And then, to be thoroughly inconsistent, he urged a drop of literal water for that spiritual tongue. So much the worse for that argument. We shall see presently a logical, Scriptural interpretation of this matter, which will violate neither reason nor love, neither head nor heart.

The basis of this doctrine of eternal torment lies in our little word "hell;" a word whose English meaning has very greatly altered from its former significance.

Originally it came into the English from the German, and signified "helle," a hole, a dark place, a cavern. In old English literature the word signified a covered or secret place or condition. As, for instance, a farmer would write to his friend at a distance, "We helled one hundred bushels of potatoes this fall," meaning that he had put away that many; pitted them; put them in a hole to keep fresh for use later on. Or, again, he might write, "We helled our house this summer," meaning that he had thatched or covered over his house. Hence the translators of our common version of the Bible were well within the right and usage of their time when they gave to the word "sheol" in the Old Testament, and its corresponding word "hades" in the New Testament, sometimes translating them "pit," sometimes "grave," and sometimes "hell;" a home; a covered place; a cavernous place. For the benefit of those who may not know, I remark that the Hebrew word rendered "hell" in the Bible occurs sixty-five times, and that it is rendered thirty-one times "hell," thirty-one times "grave," and three times "pit." In two of the instances in which it is rendered "hell" you will find in the marginal readings of the reference Bible a comment, "Hebrew, the grave." The fact is that "sheol" always means in the Hebrew the grave, the tomb; not a grave, a mound of earth, for this is represented by the word "quber." "Sheol," on the contrary, means the tomb; as, for instance, when we say ninety thousand human beings die every day and go down to the tomb'down to "sheol." As we have already said, the corresponding word to "sheol" in the New Testament is "hades," because the latter was written in the Greek language; and I remark whenever the New Testament quotes "sheol" from the Old Testament it is invariably "hades," showing that the two words had an exact equivalent. Thus, for instance, our Lord went to "sheol," went to "hades," went into the tomb; was dead three days, and he arose on the third day from Sheol, from Hades, from the tomb.


Mr. Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen:

I trust that all of you heartily enjoyed Elder Russell's answer to my eighteen questions. I trust that all of you enjoyed his taking up of those forty or fifty passages of Scripture that I used in my speech and undertaking to answer them.

Not one of these questions did he touch. Not one of the Scriptures that I read did he say anything about, but about all the time of his thirty minutes he considered the question that we discussed last night. Last night he was trying to prove that the dead are unconscious between death and the resurrection. I proved beyond even the shadow [HG218] of a doubt that they are conscious between death and the resurrection, and so convinced the greater part of the audience, I feel sure, and while Elder Russell is so bent on unconsciousness that he utterly forgot to answer the eighteen questions, and seems to be unconscious of the great number of Scriptural arguments that I presented in my speech just now, he is wholly conscious of the great torment he received last night.

And so after holding a council of war, doubtless with some of his brethren, and having twenty-four hours to study on his defeat last night, he undertakes to overcome it at this time. Possibly by having some days to study on my speech that he heard this night, he will be able to undertake to answer it next Sunday morning when he preaches in this Music Hall.

He referred at the opening of his speech to my criticism of the debate report. I offered no criticism further than simply to state the facts that I felt were due to myself and to my brethren, that about thirty-three of the thirty-seven Scriptural quotations that I used were left out of the report of my speech.

This took out half of my speech from the newspaper report. Then he very kindly referred to the fact that courtesy in Texas may not be the same as in Ohio. I do not know how that is. This is my first trip to Ohio. I am glad I am here. I am receiving plenty of courtesy. And he thinks it was discourtesy for me to refer to the fact that his men were the reporters who furnished the report to the Cincinnati Enquirer of the first session of this debate. If that was very discourteous, I wonder how courteous he thought it was last night when he insinuated that the arguments that I was introducing against unconsciousness after death were idiotic and nonsensical.

That is what he said.

If you will read the report in the Cincinnati Enquirer this morning, you will find that more than six times he said that the doctrines that I was preaching were lies.

That is very courteous, indeed. I wonder if that is a sample of Ohio courtesy? That must be "Millennial Dawn" courtesy. Well, he said that this terrible doctrine that I was preaching, the doctrine of torment, was the doctrine of devils. I would not make a charge of that kind for my life. Rev. 20:12-15, in describing the scenes of the judgment, the apostle John says: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades delivered up the dead which were in them, and they were judged every man according to their works, and death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was east into the lake of fire." This is the doctrine of the Bible and not the doctrine of devils.

I am reminded here of a man who did not believe there is any hell or any future punishment for the wicked'eternal punishment, as my friend and opponent teaches. He was debating with a man that was weak, not so strong as he was, not so well informed, and he carried the audience in favor of no punishment after death. The stronger debater was so jubilant after the debate was over that he rose in a defiant manner and said: "If there is any one in the audience who wants to ask me any questions about hell, I am ready to answer them."

A poor little, weak, blind man m the audience, uneducated and who was trying to preach the gospel to the best of his ability, arose and said, " I would like to ask you one question." "All right," he said, " ask away and I will be glad to answer it."

The blind man's wife was named Rebecca. And she read the Bible to him. And he said tO the debater, "I want to ask you to read the twenty-third chapter of Revelation before I ask the question." And with boisterous laughter he said, "I am pleased to inform you, sir, that Revelation has but twenty-two chapters." The audience laughed and cheered. The poor fellow stood there for a moment until quiet was restored, and he said: "I knew that in the Bible that Rebecca reads to me, Revelation did not have but twenty-two chapters in it, but the twenty-second chapter of Revelation left all the wicked in hell, and I thought perhaps your Bible had one more chapter to get them out." And so the word of God leaves all the wicked in eternal torment, and my distinguished opponent will never be able to get them out.

Then he referred to that man down in Mississippi that told his wife Mary that he would go to hell, and that he would deserve to go, and he intended to get all that he deserved, and he spent a number of minutes of his time in telling about some correspondence and a conversation that he had with that man, and finally wound up by telling that the man was selling whisky to the negroes down in Mississipp1 Now we have it.

I spent the whole time of my speech reading to you from the word of God what Jesus Christ and the apostles said of the doctrine of eternal torment of the wicked, and about the only argument that he brought against the doctrines of Jesus Christ and the apostles was some statement made by a man who was selling whisky to negroes in Mississipp1 But he said for all who would have been infidels without the truth that he preached to stand up, and several in this audience stood up'doubtless his convention brethren who are mainly here from a distance. I wonder if the [HG219] Cincinnati audience would like to stand up. We agreed that we would have no demonstration; he broke the agreement, and I can say where he leads me I will follow. Jesus Christ said (Matt. 25:46), "that the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment." I want every man, woman and child in this audience who believes Jesus Christ told the truth when he said that, to please stand up. [The majority of the audience arose, including all upon the platform.] Very much obliged, indeed.

If he wants to take any other vote, that is all right. He said that Protestants have their views from Catholics. I haven't my views from Catholics, from the simple fact that I have my view from the positive statement of the Lord Jesus Christ. He said it, and I am following him. But he said that he had no sympathy with the Catholic view. Neither have I. They teach that old doctrine of purgatory, that is as contrary to the word of God as the doctrine that my distinguished opponent is teaching, and I will be just as glad to debate with a Catholic on that proposition as I am with the gentleman at the present time.

But he said that Brother White, with his love for debate, overlooked Psa. 6:5, and Psa. 115:7, and some other Scripture that he quoted last night. How many of you remember that Elder Russell has overlooked about all the Scriptures that I have quoted during this entire debate. We are not discussing the proposition that we were discussing last night. We are through with that, except that inasmuch as he keeps ringing it in on another proposition. But he said that "Sheol" was the same as "hell," meaning, of course, the place of eternal punishment. I deny every word of it. I showed you from more than twenty of the standard lexicons of the world unto the contrary on the use of the word aionios, as applying unto eternity, it was everlasting, without end, forever and forever; but showed you from the word of God that Sheol was used in the Bible sixty-five times, thirty-one times translated "grave," thirty-one times translated "hell," three times translated "pit;" and in not one of these statements did it have any reference unto future eternal punishment; but showed you from the New Testament that the word "gehenna" is used twelve times, and that the word hell is uniformly translated from it, and refers unto the place of future eternal punishment. And not one of these Scriptures did he notice for a single moment's time.

But he says there is one respect in which I have the advantage, that I reel off passages which have for generations been misinterpreted, and the misinterpretation of which has become fixed in the minds of the people. Answer to this charge: it is his business now to show they are misinterpreted. Why did he not do it? lie did not even undertake it. He said that I misrepresented him on the resurrection of Jesus Christ in reading from "Millennial Dawn." If I did, I read exactly what he said in his own language. He positively declared that the body of Jesus Christ was taken out of the grave by some divine power, but was stored away somewhere, he did not know where, and he did not know what had become of it, and neither was it necessary to know what had become of it, but that it had probably been converted into gases, or would be preserved, and doubtless the Lord would present that body preserved unto the nations of the earth. And he also declared that Jesus Christ came back a "spirit being," and not in the body that he had while he was here on this earth. I showed you from that that he was denying the resurrection of the body of the Lord Jesus Christ. I still charge it on him in his " Millennial Dawn," that he denies the resurrection of the body of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now I follow an affirmative argument on the use of the Greek word aionios that I closed on in my last speech. Aionios is used by New Testament writers seventy-two times, and always and exclusively as denoting unbounded eternal duration.

The following are a few examples:

Matt. 19:29'Everlasting life.

Heb. 5:9'Eternal salvation.

Heb. 9:12'Eternal redemption.

Heb. 9:15'Eternal inheritance.

Rev. 14:6'Everlasting gospel.

2 Thess. 2:16'Everlasting consolation.

Luke 16:9'Everlasting habitations.

2 Cor. 4:17'Eternal weight of glory.

And it is similarly used to declare the endlessness of the punishment of those condemned in the great day. A careful investigation of the Scriptures shows that aionios is applied fifty-five times to the eternal life and blessedness of the righteous in the future, three times to the eternity and glory of God, twice to the everlasting covenant and gospel, three times to past eternal time, and seven times to the future eternal punishment of the wicked. These seven examples of aionios applied to the duration of future punishment, I read, as follows: Matt. 18:8, Jesus says: "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off and cast them from thee; it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed rather than having two hands or two feet to be east into [aionios] everlasting fire."

Matt. 25:41, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into [aionios] everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Matt. 25:46, "And these"'that is, the wicked' [HG220] "shall go away into [aionios] everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life [aionios] eternal."

Mark 3:29, "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of [aionios] eternal damnation."

2 Thess. 1:9, "Who shall be punished with [aionios] everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power."

Heb. 6:2, "And of resurrection of the dead and of [aionios] eternal judgment."

Jude 7, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of [aionios] eternal fire."

If there ever has been in any language a word whose meaning was indisputably fixed and clear and definite and pointed beyond all controversy, it is certainly this word aionios in the New Testament usage.

But Elder Russell is in the habit of going to many cities and delivering lectures on the subject of "To Hell and Back." I want him to tell us all about it, for I read in the Bible of a fellow who got there and did not get back. And I want to warn you now that when you get into the place of eternal torment, there will be no escape from it; and I understand that he makes a great play in his lecture on the Greek word krisis'of judgment. It is spelled in English krisis'not the English word crisis'that you speak of as the turning-point in a sick person's disease, that he has "passed the crisis." It has no reference to that whatever, but this Greek word krisis means judgment. But he makes out in his lecture and in his writings that the word "krisis" is the trial or testing of people hereafter. In Heb. 10:27, I am going to substitute his meaning of "judgment" and make it mean a trial of in the following Scriptures to show how absurd and ridiculous his position is Heb. 10:26, 27: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of the second trial and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversary."

Jas. 2:13'substituting his meaning of the word "judgment" where James put the word "judgment"'and I read, "For he shall have a second trial;" that is, after this life, as Elder Russell teaches, he shall have a second trial without mercy that hath showed no mercy, and mercy rejoiceth against a second trial.

Rev. 18:10, I read: "Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city, for in one hour is thy judgment come." But you know he makes trial and judgment the same thing'both the trial. Now I will read it with his understanding of the matter. "Standing afar Off for the fear of her second trial, saying, Alas, alas, that great city of Babylon, that mighty city, for in one hour is thy second trial come." He has it to last a thousand years.

Heb. 13:4: Krino is the Greek word from which "crisis" originated, and krino means "to judge." I read the Scriptures now'Heb. 13:4, "Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled, but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."

Now I will read in with his use of the world krino and his use of the word "judge" to give as a test. "Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled, but whoremongers and adulterers God will give a second trial."

Another thing I want to call your attention to. He is in the habit in that lecture of having a great deal to say about the Valley of Hinnom. He claims that Gehenna means the Valley of Hinnom. He would not take up my Scriptures on Gehenna till he knew I would not have any other chance to reply, so I will tell you about the Valley of Hinnom. Elder Russell will tell you that Gehenna means the Valley of Hinnom, three miles south of Jerusalem, and that there was a fire kept perpetually burning there'or used to be'and the refuse of the city was thrown there and burned up – and that is the Gehenna that Jesus is talking about.

That prince of Biblical critics, John W. McGarvey, president of the Bible College of Kentucky University at Lexington, Ky., says that "the Valley of Hinnom was a deep, narrow valley southeast of Jerusalem, and lying immediately in the south of Mount Zion." Both Elder Russell and I agree that the Valley of Hinnom was a valley three miles south of Jerusalem. We do not agree that that was the place that Jesus had reference to when he taught that that was the place that the wicked will be cast into future punishment. "The Greek word Gehenna is first found applied to it in the Septuagint translation of Josh. 18:16.

For the history of the valley see the following passages of Scripture: Josh. 15:8; 2 Chron. 28:3; 2 Chron. 33:6; Jer. 7:31; Jer. 19:1-5; 2 Kings 23:7-14. The only fire certainly known to have been kindled there was the fire in which the children were sacrificed to the god, or idol, Moloch. This worship was entirely destroyed by King Josiah, who polluted the entire valley so as to make it an unfit place for even heathen worship. There is not the slightest authentic evidence that in the days of the Jews) any fire was kept burning there, nor is there any evidence at all that casting of criminals into the fire there was ever employed by the Jews as a punishment. It was the fire of idolatrous worship in the offering of human sacrifices which has given the valley its bad notoriety. This has caused it to be associated in the minds of the Jews with sin and [HG221] suffering, and that led to the application of the name in the Greek to the place of final and eternal punishment. When the conception of such a place was formed it was necessary to give a name and there was no word in the Jewish language more appropriate for the purpose than the name of this hideous valley." So Jesus then took it up and showed them that there was a place of punishment represented by this valley, figurative of the eternal punishment of the wicked, but substituting "Valley of Hinnom" for hell, as Elder Russell does, and it will show you what absurdities it makes.

Matt. 5:22, "Whosoever shall 'say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the Valley of Hinnom, three miles south of Jerusalem."

Matt. 5:29, "And if thine right eye offend thee, pluck it out and east it from thee, for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish and not that thy whole body should be cast into the Valley of Hinnom, three miles south of Jerusalem."

Matt. 10:28, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in the Valley of Hinnom, three miles south of Jerusalem."

Rev. 20:15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the Valley of Hinnom, three miles south of Jerusalem."

My argument stands before you. Jesus said in the twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew, forty-sixth verse, "And these"'the unrighteous'" shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal." How would it be to read it like Elder Russell makes it read, "And these, the wicked, shall go away into the Valley of Hinnom, three miles south of Jerusalem." There is not a man on earth, even my distinguished opponent, that will ever be able to answer this Scriptural argument, supported by the standard lexicographers of the universe. He can not do it. The word of God is against him, the scholarship of the world is against him. He did not come to it in his last speech; he can not come to it in this speech.


I was calling your attention, dear friends, when I closed my argument, to the fact that the word "sheol" as it is used all through the Old Testament is the same word that is rendered "hell." Now, my distinguished friend tells me, tells us all, that the word "sheol" in his judgment does not mean hell at all, and does not relate to the future at all, consequently there is not any hell in the Old Testament anywhere. I am glad we have that much got rid of. That is a good deal. For one thousand years they had no hell'not a bit of it in the Old Testament'and that is right. The word "sheol" merely means the grave, and all through the Old Testament the warnings of the Lord are that they would go down to "sheol"'go down to the grave'everything on the subject.

That you may know, dear friends, how the revisers of the Bible treated this subject, I remind you that in the Revised Version there is no mention of hell, but Sheol and Hades. The revisers knew very well that the word means the grave, the tomb, the state of death, and they were not willing quite to tell the whole matter, but they put Sheol in the Old Testament and Hades in the New'too honorable to omit the thing altogether, or put it in hell, knowing it did not mean hell. I am glad our brother agrees that it does not mean a place of fire that he wishes to consign the people to.

Another word. Let me assure you that every educated minister knows what I have just related respecting the words Sheol and Hades. My opponent indicated last night, with apparent pleasure, his belief in eternal torment, and this evening also.

And that is somewhat supported by his manner this evening. Incidentally he remarked that no doubt our chairman of last evening, Rev. Robertson, also believed in eternal torment. That makes it permissible on my part to inform this audience of what Bro. Robertson said to me last evening after he had heard our presentation.

He said, "Your view, then, is that the life of the finally wicked will be extinguished?" I answered, "Yes, but not until their due time'not either in this age or in the millennial age'till they shall first have had an opportunity to come to a knowledge of the truth that they may be saved." He replied, "Undoubtedly that is true." And I am not committing any breach of confidence in this matter, because in the hearing of others he said, "Undoubtedly that is the meaning of the Scripture, 'The soul that sinneth it shall die. '"If it dies, it does not have any punishment or any more pain after that; it has had its punishment; it is punishment, dear friends, to die; it is a great punishment to die. If you get a right appreciation of life once, you will think that to die, to be utterly stricken out of existence, is a great punishment. Yet that is only God's provision for the willfully wicked. All others will have full opportunity.

I need not stop to dispute with our friend respecting the word krisis and the way in which he prefers to pronounce it. These Greek words you can pronounce according to your preference; some pronounce them one way and some another; but the word is the same word as the word "crisis" that is spelled with the letter "c." You can spell it with either "c" or "k" as you [HG222] please; it is exactly the same as the Greek word transferred to our English, and any scholar on the subject will bear me out. If you will refer this matter to some professor in your colleges around here, I am sure they will bear me out.

Now we proceed. We have waited, dear friends; we have heard our dear brother speak about figurative expressions, etc. I call them dark sayings, parables'dark sayings'f our Lord. He has quoted these, and he has quoted them from Revelation, but he did not quote you anything along the plain statement of the Scriptures. We are still waiting for Elder White's "clear, plain statements of Scriptures, about hell and its tortures." Why do you suppose he did not quote from St. Paul or St. Peter or St. Jude, or St. John's Gospel, some "plain declarations about hell and eternal torment," as those Scriptures treat other subjects, such as the ransom and justification by faith and sanctification and the conclusion of our calling, and our election, and the second coming of Jesus, and the glorification of the saints, Christ's bride and the glory of the Father? He has not told you. I will tell you. It is because there are no such Scriptures to quote, and yet St. Paul wrote these words, "I have not shunned to declare unto you the whole counsel of God."

This hell torment of the dead can not therefore be a part of the counsel of God. On the contrary, however, Paul does tell us of the destruction of the finally wicked.

Our brother quoted this, but probably you did not notice it when he was quoting it. You will notice it when I quote it, for I will not quote it in the same way. So does St. Peter; so does St. James; so does St. John, and in no figurative or parabolic language, either. St. Paul says they shall be punished with everlasting destruction. That is what they will be punished with. If he meant they will be punished with everlasting torture, why did he not say so? He did say what was the truth, that they will be "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power." They will be blotted out, the finally impenitent of whom he is speaking in 2 Thess. 1:9. Peter says they are like "brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed" (2 Pet. 2:12). Made to be taken and destroyed. Do you torment brute beasts? Is there any more reason why a man who is not fit to live should be tormented than brute beasts should be tormented? I think that man is as good as a beast, anyway, and needs as much consideration of you and your Maker as a brute beast does. James says that he who "converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from"'eternal torment?'no, sir; "shall save the soul from death." There is no figurative language about this, dear friends. This is the plain statement. (Jas. 5:20.) St. John says, "There is a sin unto death"'the second death. (1 John 5:17.) Again, "God hath given unto us"'believers'" eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son hath not life." If he hath not life, how could he have torment? (1 John 5:11-12.) But they all tell us of the love of God and his mercy, the election of the church to be joint-heirs. They tell us of the time of restitution of all things that God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:19-21.) The apostles tell us of these things.

Now, coming to some figurative passages, I find one of these in Jude's statement that our brother has quoted, that Sodom and Gomorrah were set forth as an example of suffering of vengeance and eternal fire. But it is an example; don't forget that it is an example. Our brother insists about it as being eternal. I might remark to him, and the rest of you, that the word that is used for everlasting and eternal is not a word as strong as our word in the English, "everlasting"; it more properly corresponds to our word "lasting," without the ever. It is a strong word, and the strongest word that is in the Greek, and the strongest word that is in the Hebrew; it is the same word that is used in reference to the eternal life of the church. There is no doubt about that. We are not wishing to make any point on that, that it is a different word; it is the same word that is used respecting the future of the church, that is used respecting the future of the wicked, but , when we come to see this fire, we will see. They are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire, which is all to the point.

We were just looking for an example of what eternal fire came upon Sodom. We answer that this may be understood in either of two ways, both of which are true.

First, fire sent by the eternal God; or second, age-lasting fire, the fire with which God blotted out the people of an age or epoch. Our Lord Jesus gives us a word about these people of Sodom and the fire and its effect. He says, "It rained down fire and brimstone out of heaven and destroyed them all." It was not a preservative fire. It was an example of how God will ultimately do to all willful sinners. Jesus said, "Ye shall all likewise perish, except ye repent"'unless your knowledge of God, whenever it comes, shall lead you to repentance, for all the wicked will God destroy and the wages of sin is death. (Ps. 114:20; Rom. 6:23; Luke 13:3-5.) But in great mercy God has provided forgiveness in Jesus for those who hear and see and accept the divine mercy. This is in accord with the apostle's words, "God will have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, for there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man [HG223] Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." The testimony has reached some of us now and we are responsible under it.

But it is God's will that ultimately all shall come to a knowledge of the truth, not only the 1,200,000,000 of heathens who are now living, and many equally blinded in Christendom, but all the blinded and ignorant ones who have gone down to death, into Sheol, until the time where they will await the Lord's call, "Come forth," when the message of his goodness shall be testified to.

But hearken further unto Jesus' words about Sodomites, whom, he says, were destroyed 'not preserved' by the fire that came down from heaven. And that was an example, St. Jude says. He destroyed them all. He referred not to the children who have lived afterwards, but those very ones that were destroyed by the fire. Mark the words: "It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for you, O Chorazin and Bethsaida" (Matt. 11:21). Why, you say, then the Sodomites could not have had their judgment yet? No, we answer, not their second judgment. They, like the rest of us, suffered in the first judgment, which came upon Father Adam, and was inherited by all his children, but Christ died that we might have another chance, which you and I are getting now. But the Sodomites never had their second chance; neither have the majority of mankind, the heathen, for instance, ever heard of the only name whereby they must be saved.

This gospel age is the judgment day for the church, whose eyes have been opened, and who have come into special relationship to God through faith and consecration, but the judgment day for the world waits. It is the millennial day, a thousand years long. In that day the Sodomites, and the heathen, and all mankind, who have not yet had a judgment or trial for eternal life, must come to a knowledge of the truth and have a trial, because Christ died for all.

If now our curiosity is further aroused concerning the Sodomites, it will be profitable for us to read what God has to say respecting the future. You can read it at your own convenience in Ezekiel's prophecy (16:46-63). In that prophecy our Lord tells how during the millennial age he will bring back the Israelites from the dead, and with them their companions that they despised, that all shall be blessed together.

But whether the Sodomites or Israelites, or whoever after have never been brought to a full opportunity during the millennial age, and then sinned willfully, upon them will be visited the punishment exemplified by the fire that totally destroyed the Sodomites. Fire is always a symbol of destruction, and never a symbol of preservation.

But another text that our brother made great use of was in that one parable of the sheep and goats. We come now to this parable. Note first that this parable does not apply to the present age, but to the millennial age, after the second coming of Christ. You and I can not be the sheep and goats of this parable because our Lord distinctly says in introducing it, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory, and before him shall be gathered all nations, and he shall separate them one from another as the shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats." When Brother White wanted to say the other night that our Lord was already reigning in his kingdom, we objected and called attention to the fact that the Scriptures say the prince of this world is Satan, and our Lord said, "My kingdom is not of this world." Even Brother White would be forced to admit that he has not seen our Lord sitting on the throne of his glory, and all the holy angels with him, and that he has not seen all the nations gathered before him, as sheep and goats. The church being gathered out now is being prepared for association with Christ in his throne, according to his promise, as his bride. Then with the binding of Satan and the establishment of the reign of righteousness the whole world will be before the judgment-seat of Christ, in the sense that the church is now on judgment or on trial, and just as our Lord now is separating the wheat from the tares, so then he will separate the sheep from the goats. Each member of the race will be determined by his heart obedience to the kingdom regulations, or otherwise, whether he is of the goat nature or of the sheep nature. The sheep are shown at the right hand of blessing and favor in the kingdom, and the goats are shown on the left hand, or disfavor. At the close of the millennial age the whole world will be thus divided. The sheep class, having accepted of all of God's favor, will be granted the kingdom or dominion of the earth, as Father Adam had it at the beginning, but lost it by sin.

Theirs will be a dominion under the whole heaven, and not heavenly dominion. It will be restitution to perfection; perfection will be their glorious reward, and their Eden home will be the world, with paradise restored, but it will not merely be a garden, as at first. As for the wicked, or goat class, who shall have enjoyed all those blessings and privileges, and yet not been found in heart harmony with the Lord, what of them? They are counted. as being in sympathy with Satan, and will be destroyed, even as the Lord declares that Satan will be destroyed. Notice how it is written: "These shall go away into everlasting punishment, prepared for the devil and his angels"'his messengers'his sympathizers. Nothing here tells us [HG224] what is the character of that punishment. That is to be everlasting. Brother White tells us that he is sure that everlasting punishment is everlasting torment. But let him prove it. It is one thing to say that it is torment and another thing to prove it.

Where in the Scriptures is it stated that the punishment for sin is everlasting torment? Nowhere. What do the Scriptures say is the punishment for sin? The statement is plain: "The wages of sin is death." That is the punishment. "The soul that sinneth it shall die." "Everlasting destruction"'utterly destroyed from amongst the people. (Rom. 6:23; Eze. 18:4; 2 Thess. 1:9; Acts 3:23.) These are the Scriptural statements. Where the Scriptures speak we speak. The Scripture teaching in this is silent as respecting eternal torment, being the wages of sin. It teaches no such thing as eternal torment, and we properly believe no such thing, but to the contrary. Long accustomed to thinking of punishment as implying pain, some might still feel in doubt. To such we say that the Greek word here rendered punishment is kolasin, and that its significance is restraint, not pain'the everlasting restraint into which the wicked will go, as the second death'just what the first death would have been had not God graciously redeemed us by the precious blood of Jesus.

Our brother has made a number of quotations from Revelation. We would be very glad, indeed, to go through those quotations, but we will not have the time. We wish to say, however, that in the Book of Revelation we find symbols. Our brother read some of these passages about the beast and the image and the false prophet, and I very much doubt if he knows what the beast and the image and the false prophet signify. I do not know, but the beast is going to be tormented and the false prophet is going to be tormented. And when you interpret symbols you have got to do it from that standpoint. The Book of Revelation is not something that is properly brought in in such a controversy as this. Nor would it generally be considered usage to bring in the symbols of Revelation as proof on any point. It is a rule among those who are doctors on this line to exclude anything like the Book of Revelation from being direct proof. We ought to have it in the words of Paul, in the Corinthians, or Romans, or Ephesians, or Philippians, or some of these plain, statements in which he declares that he did not shun to declare the whole counsel of God. He never said a word about eternal torment. On the contrary, he spoke of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

Now we go on. Our brother has found out that there are immortal worms; undying worms. What in the world has given worms the power of living forever? Would not that be a gift of God to those worms? I do not know, indeed, but I think that the brother has merely got his symbolisms mixed up. Let us see. He very kindly details something about Gehenna. I have to differ with him. Gehenna was not three miles from Jerusalem, but just outside the city, just a stone's-throw. It was called the Valley of I-Fro-nora, because Hinnom was the name of the man who once owned that valley, and for awhile, when they got to using the Greek language, it became corrupted and was known as Ge-Hinnom, and afterward it was changed a great deal until it became known as Gehenna. So it is known today and so it was so known at that time. The valley is now all filled up with stones. As he said very truly, it was once used as a place for the burning of children. The great image of Moloch, of brass, was lighted with fires and children put into the arms of it, as a heathen worship, and God was very much provoked at the Israelites and chided them for that, and if they had thought for a moment that God had a great, big furnace somewhere and was putting his children into it at the rate of ninety thousand a day, they would have retorted to God that they were merely copying him upon a small scale. But God was very much incensed against them, and as the brother has said, Joash the king destroyed the valley. So, then, it was kept for the throwing of offal. Now, then, we are not meaning to say, dear friends, that Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, is the place of the second death. No; our Lord all through the Scriptures shows there is a picture drawn by which the earthly Jerusalem is represented by a picture of a heavenly Jerusalem, the one the type and the other the antitype, and so this Valley of Hinnom, outside the walls of Jerusalem, was merely a figure or type representing the second death. But those who would not be permitted to go into the new Jerusalem would suffer in the second death. I have not the time to deal with the matter more particularly now, but wish to refer you, if you please, to the undying worms, etc., connected with that valley. These worms in that little valley fed on the carcasses, unless they were burned by the fire, and those were the little worms of that time.

They did not die in the sense that nobody had the power to extinguish the fire there. It was kept burning purposely, by a law, and the worms were allowed to feed upon whatever was thrown into that valley but did not alight in the fire, but on the rock above. It was literally destroyed, a symbolism of the utter destruction of all those who will not be allowed to enter into the new Jerusalem, the kingdom of God, when that time shall be accomplished.

Now I come to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. I would like if I had more time, dear friends, to deal with this matter, but we will have to do the best [HG225] we can. There was a certain rich man. Was there a certain rich man, or is that a parable? Now, our dear brother did not tell us whether he thought it was a parable or not; he appeared to say that he thought that it was a literal statement, therefore I must meet that argument, lest he should say that I did not meet it right. If it was a literal statement, there are certain difficulties about it. In the first place, why did the man go there? Look at the records. "There was a certain rich man. He fared sumptuously every day, and he wore purple and fine linen." Is there anything else about him that was bad? No, merely the riches and the purple and fine linen and plenty to eat. That was all that was bad about him. There is not a word said about his being an immoral man, or a blasphemer of God, or anything else. There was a certain rich man, etc., and he died and was taken off into'torment? Mark you, dear friends, he was not taken to Gehenna. He was taken to Hades; and the brother said that Hades never refers to future eternal torment. [Applause.] He died, but went to Hades. He went into the grave condition. Then, if you will look a little bit further into the matter, and read the other part of the parable, you will see what about the poor man. What was there in his case? Why, he was simply a poor man; he was full of sores and sick, and he lay at the rich man's gate, and ate the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Was there anything good about that? Not especially. Was there any reason why he should go to heaven because he lay at the gate and was sick and had no money? Not especially. Are these the terms on which you hope to go to heaven; that you do not wear any clean, fine linen and never wear purple, and that you have never had plenty to eat? Are these the terms upon which you hope to get to heaven? I do not think so.

Do you think your chance to get to heaven is merely if you lie at some rich man's gate and eat crumbs, and have sores, and have dogs come and lick them? Is that your chance of going to heaven? If so, you will never get to heaven. You have never had those experiences, have you? But'now wait a minute'when. this Lazarus was carried'he did not die ordinarily, you see; he was carried by the angels. That is not the way you expect to go, anyway. But when he was carried by the angels, where did he land? In Abraham's bosom. Abrham had his arms full.

Now, what chance do you think you or I have? What chance, dear friends, is there for you and for me now if Abraham got Lazarus away back there? And more than eighteen hundred years have elapsed since. He could not take any more in his arms, sure; he could not take you and me, and there could not have been many saved at all, for that matter. It is nonsense. In other words, dear friends, it is not a literal statement at all, but is a parable. It is a hyperbolical parable; it is an exaggerated statement in parable form. What does it mean? I must be very brief, and can not go into detail, but wish to say right now that I have some pamphlets that treat of this matter. I will be pleased to give any of you a pamphlet free if you will address me and say you would like to have that pamphlet. It gives all the texts on hell.

The rich man was the Jewish nation, who fared sumptuously, had plenty; God filled their table full; they had purple; royalty is represented by purple; the kingdom of God in its typical form was in the Jewish nation. They had fine linen, representing the righteousness or justification that God provided them through the sacrifices of the law. All of these things belonged to the Jews. Their table was furnished in the presence of all their enemies, as they themselves boasted. But the time came when they rejected Jesus, and their nation died'died to all those blessings. They did not go to eternal torment, but died to those blessings. As a nation they died, and they are not in existence today as a nation. They have no nationality; they are a people, but they are not a nation. Now, that is what is represented here, dear friends; a man who is dead; he is in Hades'not alive. You see as a nation they are in Hades, they are dead. As a people they are alive, but as a live people they have been suffering torture all through this gospel age. Where?

At the hands of the various Christian nations. It is not very long since President Roosevelt, of this country, was asked to intercede for them with the Russian Government to give them some easement. They said, "Give us a drop of water to cool our tongue." They are in this torment of trouble. They have been in this trouble all through the gospel age. I must not stop with this now, but go on. How about Lazarus? Who was he?

Lazarus represented the Gentiles, all those who were outside of the pale of the Jewish influence. They lay at the gate. The Jews would not recognize them, and the Lord said there was a change coming, and that as the Jewish nation was going to have to die as a nation, so those who had been outcasts from them were going to be received into God's favor. You remember that Jesus gave an illustration of this woman of Syrophoenicia, and how she spoke to him. She wanted favor and he granted the favor of healing her daughter, you remember.

You remember how this Lazarus was taken into Abraham's bosom, Whom did he represent? He represents you and me, and all who by nature are Gentiles'not Jews. We were not part of the rich man, we did not have purple or fine linen. We were poor [HG226] outcasts, without God and without hope, but now we are brought in as the apostle says, and we become the children of Abraham, and we are in the arms of Abraham, in this figurative sense'Abraham representing the father of the faithful. We have become the children of Abraham.


"Gather my saints now together," You brave Christian Soldiers so strong, There are not very many among you That are marching along with the throng.

The armor that you wear is not modern, The song that you sing is not new, The Captain's unseen by the enemy, But he's THERE shouting orders to you.

You promised to join him in battle, That you'd sacrifice, even to death, For a freedom to stand as eternal, For YOU and the peoples of earth.

Your strength for each day shall be plenty, Your food will never run low, With cool sparkling water for drinking, And shelters for rest as you go.

You can sing happy songs in the night-time.

No terror the foe ever brings To the army of glad Christian soldiers Who has something to tell as he sings.

Yes! They have marched through the ages, All those who have answered the call Of "Gather my dear saints together," You who would sacrifice all.

We are now nearly over the border, Certain victory comes into sight, The shout that we give then is "COURAGE!"

Don't EVER give up the last fight!